when donald trump first refused to concede the election in 2020, republican in congress

didn't know what to do with it. at the time, a lot of republicans kept their mouth shut, hoping trump would eventually give up. there are also the republicans who went all in, started scheming with the trump white house about how to keep joe biden from being certified as of the president. there is one congressman in particular who was way out in front of that effort, organizing a number of his colleagues to sign on on to a highly dubious lawsuit challenging biden's lawsuit in four key swing states. >> republican lawmakers are getting behind the suit, leading the effort on capitol hill is congressman mike johnson. what is behind the suit ? >> there was a lot of irregularity, front, and hijinks. we will have a landslide of house republicans who are going to sign on to our brief to

support this. >> mike janssen, then a little- known congressman from louisiana was the driving force behind congressional republican efforts to overturn the 2020 election. he was the architect of a key part of trump's legal strategy in trying to get election results throughout. and house republicans eventually ousted speaker kevin mccarthy and ultimately settled on mike johnson to phil mccarthy's position, reporters tried to ask johnson about his role in trying to overturn the election. this is what that looked like. >> speaker johnson, you helped overturn the 2020 election. >> shut up, shut up. >> next question. >> republicans booming a reporter, telling her to shut up because they did not want to talk about micah johnson's role in the big lie. flash forward to today. mike janssen has been speaker of the house for nearly 6 months. because the lifecycle of a republican house speaker is

roughly that of a fruit fly, micah johnson is already facing revolt among the far right members of his own party. congresswoman marjorie taylor greene has introduced a resolution to oust speaker johnson the same way hard- liners ousted kevin mccarthy. speaker johnson decided to try to shore up support from conservatives by embracing, once again, election lives. today, the embattled speaker flew to mar-a-lago, where he and donald trump gathered reporters in a strange candelabra filled room in palm beach to talk about election integrity. that is the parties effort term for its lies about stolen elections. johnson and comport there to talk about the big lie you may have grown accustomed to hearing about at this point. instead, they offered a new version of the big lie, an updated version 2.0 that weaves together existing election conspiracies with trump's other favorite conspiracy theory, the so-called migrant takeover of the united states. >> election integrity is tied to border, the lack of border

security. among the problems that flows from this open border catastrophe is directly related to this threat to our election integrity. we believe one of their designs, one of the reasons for this open border, which everybody asks around the country, why would they do this? they want to turn these people into voters. >> venezuela, it is happening with the congo, it is happening with countries all over africa, asia, south america, all over the world it is happening. our country is like a dumping ground. >> they are coming from venezuela, the congo, africa, asia, south america. democrats are shipping in brown people from all over the world to turn them into illegal voters. elaborate and also wildly untrue. people who come to this country seeking a better life for themselves and their families do not willingly risk a deportation just to vote for democrats. it just does not happen. the brennan center for justice analysis found out of 23.5 million votes cast, there were

just 30 instances in which noncitizen votes were suspected . that is just the instances where it was suspected. the actual number is likely even smaller. even conservative think tanks like the cato institute have found nonecitizens don't illegally vote in detectable numbers. that reality doesn't matter to donald trump and micah johnson they need and election lie that motivates their base. they have traded in the pulse conspiracies about black and brown people rigging the election in atlanta and detroit and philadelphia for a new narrative, one where brown people from all over the global south are invading the united states just to vote for democrats. it is not just mike johnson and donald trump. the republican national committee, now led by trump's daughter in law, is running robo calls pushing this exact same nonsense.

>> hello, i am stephanie calling for the republican national committee cochair will direct trump. i'm sure you agree with cochair trump we cannot allow the chaos and questions of the 2020 election to happen again. if democrats have their way, your vote could be canceled out as someone who isn't even an american citizen. >> as preposterous as this theory is, it appears to be convincing people, including some very influential people. one of the richest men in the world, elon musk, who i will note is himself an immigrant to the united states, has repeatedly pushed the false claim that democrats are trying to ship in voters from other countries. elon musk has blasted that message to his millions of followers on the social media platform he owns and controls. now, he will be assisted in this insanity by the leader of the house of representatives and one of the two front runners for the u.s. presidency. joining me now is melissa murray, msnbc legal analyst and nyu law professor and john hammond. thank you for both being here

this evening as we sift through the chaos once again of what happened at mar-a-lago. >> that's one word for it. >> it is a family program. john, if you didn't like the big lie 1.0, there apparently is a 2.0. is it an upgrade, what do you think of it? it is more outlandish, is it more effective? >> if the question is does it animate trumps a base, it definitely does. if the question is does it make voters who are in the middle of the electorate who are suburban voters who won the election for joe biden, along with big turnout from the base in 2020, and who in a lot of quarters have been drifting, they are back toward trump, they are in and out, they don't like biden's economy, every time trump does this kind of thing, it reminds people of something in our amnesiac country that can't remember what happened

last tuesday, donald trump wasn't so badly trump years want so bad. we see this in the polling all the time. when trump does this, it is making it about him. when he makes it about him, he makes it about your word, chaos. chaos in the suburbs of philadelphia and the suburbs of milwaukee and the suburbs of atlanta, chaos is not put the soft republican voters want. it is why they ran away from him in 2020 and he keeps pushing it in their face. it is a risk for him politically and i don't think it helps on net. >> there is also the bigger question of what it does to our democracy, right ? the after effect of 2020 is voter suppression laws enacted across the country. when you hear about the rnc and these, they have 18 election integrity lawsuits across the country, there was a response to the preposterous falsehoods that were circulated by the republican party and donald trump and state legislatures responded. should we be paying more attention to this question >> it is not an unfamiliar

trope that they are rehashing. it is not terribly original. it is the kind of thing that you typically would find cooked up in a meth lab of conservative grievance, this idea that all of these new arrivals from the global south are replacing your vote. it is a species of replacement. it is meant to trade on the same fears of demographic change and losing your country. and, the response i think has been quite swift and immediate. there are more poll watchers who are authorized to be there and not only are they watching the polls, they might be intimidating certain voters from casting their votes. there are more laws now that require individuals to provide more proof to show that they are not noncitizens, even though we know that the prospect of noncitizens voting is glancing the rear. the incentives are terrible for noncitizens to vote. you won't change the election with your vote and you could be deported or go to jail. the incentives don't play out. but, it has cashed out in a wave of laws that are designed

to suppress the vote among certain voters under the auspices of limiting election fraud and election fraud that doesn't happen. >> solving a problem that doesn't exist. also when we compare it to 2020, john, in the aftermath of january 6th, there was, for a minute at least, the institutional firmament of the gop rejected the narrative that , they rejected january 6th and to some degree, they rejected some of the big lie. that all changed. kevin mccarthy went to mar-a- lago, took the photo. there's not even the pretense anymore. there's mike johnson the speaker of the house, having a press conference to talk about proposed legislation to deal with the problem that doesn't exist, which is more outlandish than i think many other theories we've heard. >> let's be clear. this is the least surprising thing in the world in the sense that mike johnson was not just a follower, not just a lemon on the big lie and on the donald

trump election, he was one of the primary architects of the big light and the strategy to put in the fee collectors. he has been down with the program from the very beginning. it is a big reason why he's a speaker. he doesn't know anything about the house and how it works, he has no qualifications to be speaker. he's probably learned something in the half a year he has been speaker. he is not someone who would qualify on the basis of anything else, unlike mccarthy who put in that time and understood preliminary procedure. mike johnson is there because he's the most maga candidate who survived the carnage they inflicted on themselves a year ago. to have him down there doing this is not surprising. i will say it is incredible, though. just on a purely political basis, you don't get to stay speaker if republicans don't keep control of the house. and, everything donald trump is doing, i, he wants to get rid of the affordable care act, he shoots down the migration and

border bill. he is tanking ukraine aid, is going against everything mitch mcconnell thinks is in the interest of the republican majority, donald trump is tanking, including mike johnson's own fisa thing this week. it's like here. >> the humiliation is absolute. >> it is incredible and it is politically toxic. he just does things that are, by women, by caprice and that are, in his view, good for him but he is guaranteeing with every move that the republicans will not still be in the majority after november and, hey mike, guess what, if you are not in the majority, you on a speaker anymore. it is craven politically. it is also incredibly, it is like suicidal. >> is cutting off your nose and eating it to spite your face. i had to say that. to that end, the one thing john left off the laundry list of ridiculous things republicans are taking a knee on at the behest of donald trump, abortion. at the same press conference, trump is asked about his position there's two pieces of sound, control room. i want to play the one where he talks about what is happening at the state level and the harmony therein. can we play that?

>> what we did was give it back to the states and now the states are working their way through it and you are having some very, very beautiful harmony, to be honest with you. you have, well, you have some cases like arizona that went back to like 1864 something like that and a judge made a ruling that will be changed by government. >> okay. first, what? first of all, it's not on the ballot yet, it would be changed by the voters, not the government. is it a beautiful harmony? what was that ? >> that was a word salad. if harmony is the sounds of women bleeding out in parking lots because they are septic and can't get the treatment that they need after a miscarriage, then, yes, i guess that is harmony. >> to donald trump's years.

>> this is someone who doesn't understand how government works. literally, how a bill becomes a law and also has no idea what the reproductive cycle is. are you there, god, it's me donald trump. that is a real problem. the republicans are taking a knee on abortion, in large part, i think, because donald trump knows he doesn't need a republican house or a republican senate to further curtail abortion rights. we have this zombie comstock lawn lying in wait and all donald trump needs to reanimate that and activate a nationwide ban on abortion and any incident that might be used for abortion is to get his new department of justice, with his new ag, to begin reprioritizing the enforcement of the comstock act. people need to get hip to that. he can afford to lose mike johnson. mike johnson is expendable. he can afford to lose congress. he can do this the other way, the way the hard-core members of his base would be happy to have him do it. >> quite clearly he doesn't want any actual republican legislation to pass, which is why he's killing all of it. >> you don't need a republican

legislature if you have the courts. >> he has no interest. the governance doesn't seem to be of the essence here. >> that is an argument that applies to anything he cares about most of all, which is keeping himself out of prison. he doesn't need a republican house or senate for that, just means the attorney general, the sweet sweet, the worst version of bill barr. >> the other part of it, john, that should not be ignored, he was asked about marjorie taylor greene. he just said, i don't think we have time, i'm sorry. we will keep you guys here for a long time tonight. let's play it. >> marjorie taylor greene's motion to vacate, would you stand behind speaker johnson ? >> we are getting on very well with the speaker and i get along very well with marjorie. we have a speaker, he was voted in and it was a complicated process and i think it's not an easy situation for any speaker. i think he's doing a very good job. he's doing about as good as you are going to do. i'm sure that marjorie understands that. i think she's a very good friend of mine.

>> to have donald trump as your father figure, what must that be like. >> going to say, if you are mike johnson and you watched what happened, kevin mccarthy, tony to donald trump for years. i went to mar-a-lago. when the chips are down, i will have trump behind me. trump is like see you later, i don't care about you, kevin. mike johnson, does he think this is going to, trump will come to his rescue when trump says to treating the green taken out? first to mike johnson, donald trump has betrayed everyone who has ever suffocated themselves in front of him. everybody does it, they all think he will be their friend. mike johnson is definitely not going to be different. >> word to the wise. melissa and john, you do not get to leave and have a friday night quite yet. hang here for just a little bit longer. coming up, i would like to get your thoughts on the eve of the first criminal trial of the former president. jury selection begins monday. one of the key potential witnesses for the prosecution says there are some surprises in store.

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why do you believe it is important for you to testify, take the stand in this upcoming trial ? >> i'm not testifying. when i testify, i tell the truth. all i can do is tell the truth. >> donald trump is a few days away from his first criminal trial. earlier today, trump asserted he will take the stand in the new york city hush money trial, which appears to be both predictable and a very bad idea. here is michael cohen, trump's former fixer and potential star witness for the prosecution in an interview with politico. >> do you think he wants to testify? >> i think he would like to

believe that he would. >> do you think it would be a disaster? >> donald does not know how to tell the truth. >> michael cohen also predicts manhattan district attorney alvin bragg has some surprises in store. >> credibility is one part of this. he felt about that. the other work that comes up is corroboration. what can you tell us about that ? is this a stronger case when it comes to corroboration that people understand on the outside? >> if it wasn't, i assure you and your listeners that alvin bragg and his team of prosecutors would never have brought this case . >> do you think we will be surprised by some of the corroborating evidence ? >> i do. >> back with me are melissa murray and john heilemann. melissa, let's tackle the latest news of today, which is trump saying , seemingly

definitively, that he's going to testify at the trial. can you paint a picture of the disaster that might be for him? >> it is very unorthodox for any criminal defendant to take the stand in her own defense. in a terminal trial, the burden is on the government to prove the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. it is a very high standard, any kind of doubt can be room for a jury to acquit. the defendant doesn't have to do anything. the burden is on the prosecution. stepping in and giving the prosecution an opportunity to cross-examine you, to poke holes in your story and to shore up their own story, disastrous. most lawyers would tell their clients know, do not do this. but, again, most lawyers don't have donald trump as a client. as michael cohen said, this has got to be really nerve-racking for the defense team. this is a man who consistently shows that he loves to talk, he

loves to talk about himself and he's not particularly tethered to the truth when he does so. >> that is being generous. john, when we think about the hush money trial, in some ways, it is a story referred before. it goes to the essence of trump as a national character, as a new york character. i will read a quote from david corn. "the trial cast a light on an important slice of trump's origin story, his cultivation of a sordid and crude celebrity infused with misogyny." my question to you is, does that have an effect on the american people at his point? are we used with or is it a negative reminder of the distasteful things about trump that will have a meaningful effect on the election ? >> there is a poetic kind of justice to this being the first trump trial. if you are thinking about this as a narrative and particularly if it was that we actually thought we would get the january 6 panel or classified documents trial in time for the election, i could go with the argument of it is great but this is the first one because it is going in sequence. we could see the character and then we get to see what he did in office. this is pre-presidency, then we

could residency, then post presidency. it would be the right way to tell the story about this guy. i think that of the three of them, it is the one that has the least political consequences, not the one you would, if you were like we can only get one of these trials done before election day, which one do we want ? it is not the one you would pick. that doesn't mean it doesn't matter to people. we have seen some polling that suggests two thirds of the country thinks this is a serious charge, doesn't dismiss the charge. it is, you know, if you go out and talk to people in the country about it, it is not the thing that for trump voters, they obviously don't care. democrats already understand trump is a misogynist. there are these people in the middle who i think have lots of problems with trump and have the things or they find repulsive about him and dangerous. they don't necessarily think that paying hush money is the reason they are going to not vote for him. it is more likely if you could demonstrate that donald trump was a seditionist and convicted of that, that is probably ballgame. the classified documents case

is a very clear-cut thing. president should not be doing this and a lot of people have a lot of respect for that. this gets into the price of the stock. >> sleazy but not disqualifying. there will be new stuff, though. it seems quite obvious that alvin bragg will be presenting new evidence, witnesses . it's not just to be michael cohen song and dance. >> i think that's right. i don't agree with what you say, john. i would say part of the reason why this feels a little low rent to a lot of voters is how we talk about it. there's something salacious about it, there's something tawdry about it but when you look at it, and andrew and i talk about this in our book. when you look at this in the sweep of the four indictments, it is like he's gearing up with this one and it is a pattern and practice of doing anything to get what you want.

that was something that marked his presidency. we saw in these moments where the supreme court would strike down things the trump administration did, it was because they would do anything to that the outcome, even if it meant circumventing the normal channels that you had to go through. this is kind of the same thing. january 6th is just a more elaborate version of that. to just stay in power, i will allow insurrectionist into the capitol. this is the beginning of a pattern and practice. if you talk about it like that, maybe that moves the needle and gets the public animated about the other trials that they are probably not going to see. >>, follow up and ask what your expectation is for alvin bragg, there was a big "new york magazine," profile on him. he's methodical, risk adverse. you heard michael cohen say you would never bring this case if it is just what you know now. this guy has done his homework. what is your petition ? >> the burden is so high on the prosecution to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt that you don't just bring anything for a jury. you really have to believe your case is airtight, that you can tell this story to 12 people

and they are all going to be with you at the end. alvin bragg, he's a really good lawyer. the folks on his teams are good lawyers, matthew colangelo, senior prosecutor on this, former clerk to justice sonia sotomayor. he is a real lawyer doing real things. he's not going to be a fly-by- night guy. he's methodical. they are buttoned up on this. i have to believe michael cohen there are things we are not expecting that come out in the course of this that bolster this case perhaps more so than we are expecting. >> they do not like to lose. to be the one who took the shot on the first trump trial and failing, your ego is at stake and i think that is one reason i think the guy wants to win. >> that's so true. alvin bragg is not going out to lose.

melissa marie, john heilemann, thank you for spending a sizable portion of your friday with me. still ahead, republicans are desperately trying to distance themselves from the abortion bands they recently championed . vice president kamala harris is not going to let them off the hook. that is next. at is next. when you have chronic kidney disease, there are places you'd like to be. like here. and here. not so much here. farxiga reduces the risk of kidney failure which can lead to dialysis. ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ ♪♪

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we thought that when you said you supported the 1864 and, you meant it. what is this drastic change in the way you talk about it? >> i want to know what to say to people who trusted you and believed in you, why are you

against that ? >> i am pro-life. >> this is not been a good week for republican senate candidate and trump alline kari lake. on tuesday, arizona's top court reinstated an abortion ban from 160 years ago, when slavery was the lot of the land, only white men could vote and arizona wasn't actually a state. the ban criminalizes virtually all abortions with no exceptions for and kari lake was a big proponent of that lot. >> i am incredibly thrilled that we are going to have a great law on the books so it will prohibit abortion in arizona. >> that was two years ago when kari lake was running for arizona governor. now, when she is running for arizona senator, the great law has actually become the law of the land and it is deeply, profoundly unpopular. yesterday, kari lake changed her mind .

>> if you look at where the population is on this, a full ban on abortion is not where the people are. the issue is less about banning abortion and more about saving babies. >> are you following this? pro-life kari lake, who previously called the civil war era abortion ban a great law, is now claiming that the law is not where the people are . she even reportedly called on arizona state legislators to repeal it, which has landed her in some very hot water with conservative anti-choice voters. that is what you saw in that clip we played earlier, where she is getting booed, effectively. it could have just ended there. but, it didn't. to prove her credentials with the allegedly profamily wing of her party, kari lake started a new and amazing policy. >> in hungary, what they did, but was so amazing, they started with their tax rate and

when you get married, they give you a cut in your tax rate. when you have her first child, they give you another cut. by the time a mother has four children, she never pays taxes again. that is called a baby bonus. i think we should do that here in america. >> first of all, the reason hungary's authoritarian dictator is trying to encourage native mothers to have multiple offspring is because he is engaged in a white christian nationalist project of repopulating his country with white christians and as part of that, he has pursued and aggressively fascistic agenda of keeping out black and brown migrants. setting all of that aside, the policy that lake thinks is so amazing, the tax cut for people who have kids is literally something we have here in america. it is called the child tax credit. lawmakers have recently proposed expanding it. right now, right at this very moment, in fact, the senate and senate republicans in particular are trying to block

it. here is the quote. "senate republicans are inching closer to burying a bipartisan bill to expand the child tax credit. the top table republican in the senate finance committee said it would create too much entitlement." it appears that kari lake's know nothing attitude about reproductive health care extends to a lot of other things too. that has not escaped the notice of democrats. earlier today, vice president kamala harris took this issue right to kari lake's doorstep in arizona to make lake and the republican party answer for their hypocrisy. i will talk more about that with lisa lerer from "the new york times," coming up next. up nex

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just like he did in arizona, he basically wants to take america back to the 1800s. but, we are not going to let that happen. >> today at a campaign rally in tucson, arizona, vice president kamala harris went on the offensive. just three days after arizona supreme court ruled the states 1864 abortion ban is enforceable, vice president harris made it abundantly clear there is one person responsible for all of this, former president donald trump. she also argued women's rights and basic freedoms depend on keeping trump out of the white house.

>> overturning roe was just the opening act, just the opening act of a larger strategy to take women's rights and freedoms . former president donald trump did this. because of donald trump, one in three women of reproductive age in our country live in a state that has a trump abortion ban. now, trump wants us to believe he will not sign a national ban. enough with the gas lighting. it is your power that will put this great in the arizona state constitution and it is your power that will send joe biden and me back to the white house.

>> joining me now is lisa lerer, national political correspondent for "the new york times," and co-author of upcoming book "the fall of rome, the rise of a new america." lisa, i am such a fan of all of your reporting on all of this and you had interesting reporting ahead of this event about how vice president harris made this event, it went from an official white house event to a campaign event. my question to you would be for a while we've heard about the biden/harris campaign toggling between different topics as the big difference makers in the election, democracy, the economy. that's what it feels like they are coalescing around abortion as being a very powerful motivator in november. >> one top biting strategist tells me it is a powerful motivator and a powerful motivator across the board. sure, it is perhaps more energizing for certain groups in their coalition, young voters, female voters there's no one that doesn't, there's no biting voter or voter who is available to biden, democrat certainly but also independence, even some moderate republicans, particularly moderate

republican women, who does not feel motivated by this and they see abortion as symbolic of more than just the right to terminate a pregnancy. it is also, they see it as symbolic of freedoms and bodily autonomy and these are the things that connect deeply with people in this moment. >> it dovetails with my chrissy, bodily autonomy, freedom, it is an economic issue whether or not you can have a child or are forced to have a child. i do wonder as we talk about like how biden makes sense of this and who is delivering the message. biden himself has had a complicated relationship, shall we say with the topic of abortion stretching back to his days as a senator. is it your sense that harris will be leading the charge on this? she seems to have a sensitivity to how relevant it is and a way of talking about it that is particularly pointed and

passionate. >> what our reporting found was that she's eager to do this, she sees this as a core issue to the campaign, something to fight on and she's concerned that trump is going to muddy the waters somehow and try to demonstrate that he wouldn't go further and she believes that he would go further, that he would endorse some kind of national ban, either through congress or through the comstock act. biden, the interesting thing about biden is i think he stopped more deeply about abortion than any president i can remember. he has really struggled with this issue and struggled between his politics and what he believes is the correct policy and his faith and we document that in part of our book but it is interesting. i think he's even evolved since dobbs in this post roe era to become more of a champion of perhaps not a procedure that he himself would get if he was still in the market for such things but as an available right, something american women should have. >> i think he can see himself

in other americans or other americans can see themselves in joe biden. the stories of women who are going septic or being forced to get nearly septic in order to get basic health care because of these abortion provisions in state constitutions or state law . that has changed the partisan divide on all of this. one of the things that i think is so striking about this week, and i would love to hear your thoughts on where this case in arizona has been to resident is that donald trump comes out on monday citing a big reveal here is leave it to the states, right, that is my big plan to curry favor with independents and moderates. on tuesday, we see what happens when it is left to the states. is the timing of that particularly difficult for republicans, is that why democrats are seizing on it? is that why it has been so widely discussed ? >> i think there's a couple things going on here. i think certainly the timing of trump's announcement and this law, out, it was a perfect political storm for democrats to seize on. i also do think there's something about this happening

in arizona. i think americans have a sense or an expectation, for better or worse, these kinds of things happen in deep red states. the case that undead road took place in mississippi. obviously we were talking a few weeks ago about alabama and access to ivf. this is arizona, this is a swing state, this is a place that has had explosive growth in recent years. it is not a deep, people don't think of it, and it is not a deep red state and that gives a sense, at least the biden campaign believes, i should say, there strategist, that that gives a sense that this is something that is creeping closer and closer to people's lives, that more and more people have heard the story of of women who have faced the heart-wrenching medical and emotional decisions and it is becoming more and more present that the drumbeat of headlines" williams continues to reinforce what a post roe america is. >> the tide is creeping. i think north carolina, one of the democratic candidates for governor said this is the southernmost state where abortion is still legal. lisa lerer for "the new york

times," thank you for your time tonight. trumps codefendants in the classified documents case were in court for judge aileen canon today saying they were only taking orders from the big guy and should have their charges dismissed. judge aileen canon's response is next. next. wait! we can use etsy's new gift mode! yes, what do the french like? ...anyone? cheese... they like cheese! brilliant. done. plateau de fromage! oh la la! [cheering] don't panic. gift easy with gift mode, new on etsy.

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we could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. their connection is unreal. and we could all un-experience this whole session. okay, that's uncalled for. mar-a-lago on may 26, 2022, walt nauda told trump he was going for a jog but he wasn't. he was taking a way to talk to

the fbi. the fbi agents talked to walt nauda about the pb show "how i met your mother," to get him to relax. the focus of the interview was more substantive. they asked walt nauda about the movement of boxes and whether he had seen any classified information. in that interview, it is now the relevant. today in court, walt nauda and his codefendant, trump property manager carlos de oliveira tried to have some of the charges against them dropped in the trump classified documents case. the crux of their argument is that they shouldn't be guilty of obstructing justice because they claim they didn't know there was an investigation happening in the first place. they didn't know what they were moving, they were just following orders. the main issue with that is that one week after walt nauda was interviewed by the fbi about moving boxes that could have classified information in

them, walt nauda and carlos de oliveira moved boxes for trump again. so, does their argument today have legs? or, is it as made up as the dog walt nauda says he took. joining me is an expertise in national security, security clearances and government investigations, like the one trump and carlos de oliveira find themselves in. mark zaid. mark, thank you for joining me. i wonder what you make of this argument that carlos de oliveira and walt nauda were following orders, despite the fact they had a meeting with the fbi where the fbi was clear about what was in those boxes. >> sure, good evening, alex, pleasure to be here. i don't like the i'm just following orders argument. it makes me think of world war ii and the and we know how that turned out, which i'm not making the equivalent, obviously, with what this situation is but, pretty much as judge aileen canon was

describing, as much as one can assess from the bench how a judge reacts , this is mostly a fact and trial issue. today's hearing was a very routine, typical, expected defense motion to dismiss charges, try and get additional information. but, it really comes down to is it a fact or not? did they know, did they not know? it could be a viable defense that could ultimately lead to their acquittal. that will be for a jury to decide, likely not this judge. >> you mentioned get more information. it sounds like they want a bill of particulars. i'm just a student in tv law school. a bill of particulars, as i understand it, is essentially an itemized list of every illegal action the government, the special counsel believes

walt nauda and carlos de oliveira took. smith has some thoughts on why walt nauda and carlos de oliveira would want the bill of particulars. he alleges walt nauda's motion asks how the government will prove facts at trial and is therefore a thinly veiled attempt to get the government to disclose its trial strategy. do you agree with that ? >> it is very typical from both sides. this part of the case is a normal criminal case. we are dealing with conspiracy allegations, concealment of documents, obstruction of justice, false statements. it doesn't have to involve classified or national defense information. this is the nonesexy part of this case. the defense is trying to get more information, the prosecution is trying to prevent that from happening. this is a detailed indictment, superseding to bring in carlos de oliveira . so, in this sense, whatever, this is just him going back and forth. but we are really waiting for is more proceedings with respect to the classified information procedures act,

where trump's next submission is due by may 9th, where we want to see it as the public but the court will start to learn what type of classified information or what specific documents former president trump's legal team wants to present at the trial. this is when we get into the meat of whether this case will actually be successful for the prosecution or successful for trump. >> just from the outside, mark, it feels like judge aileen canon is really considering everything at a pretty leisurely pace. smith is accusing walt nauda and carlos de oliveira of these motions is being dilatory tactics that are paving the way for more delays. i know you said this is a pro forma exercise, this is what happened. the fact that we are having these hearings for all of these motions, does it feel like the judge at least is a slow rolling this? >> certainly feels that way. we still do not know when the

trial will be. it is still technically set for may 20th. obviously, that is not going to happen. there is a possibility smith, the special counsel has asked for july. the defense has said they can deal with august. we will see. i will take my chances going to the casinos and winning before i predict one i think this trial will actually occur. but, there is a lot of back-and- forth gamesmanship. could this case go more quickly? absolutely. there were delays with respect to options that were unnecessary, at least from the outside perspective. i will say that these types of espionage act cases, again, not what we were hearing about today, but, you know, there's a lot that needs to go into these very difficult, complicated cases involving classified information. you add in a former president

of the united states, you can kind of understand why it is taking so long. but, obviously, a lot of people want this to happen before the election in order for those two factor that into the decision. that is clearly not but this judge is contemplating and i don't know if that is necessarily inappropriate because that is not relevant to the criminal part of it. for many people, this is going to slow. i am just trying to watch it as a matter of law to understand what is happening and eventually we will find out. ou. that is our show for tonight. notice time for the last word with katie thing. evening, katie. >> alex, we just got some craziness. you know how everyone has been saying 500 people got notices to appear monday for donald trump's first criminal trial,